It's my understanding that each member of the House will have 5 minutes to voice their opinion on the resolution.

435 members x 5 minutes = 2175 minutes = 36.75 hours (not counting the procedures time)

By the most conservative estimates, there have been approximately 60,000 civilian deaths in Iraq; 23,417 wounded americans, and 3126 american deaths since the invasion began around 1447 days ago.

Here's where I apologize for not being great at math, but...if I have it figured right:

By the time the House is finished discussing the resolution, 62 more Iraqi civilians will be dead, 24 more americans will be wounded, and 3 more americans will be dead.

And, that's based on conservative estimates. The Iraqi civilian deaths would be double or even triple that figure, by some estimates.

My "will" as an american is for the killing to stop. Right now. Not later.

I'll keep this simple and clear...

OUT OF IRAQ...NOW!
NO MORE BLOOD FOR OIL!

I echo what Starcomed07 said in the last thread.

The debate should NOT(!) be about the continuation with or without the escalation. To even entertain such a debate means you support keeping our troops in harms way, albeit a smaller number, in favor of the Felony that took them there and continues to kill them there in Iraq.

A CBS News Poll out Monday:

~ 67% polled see the U.S. efforts in Iraq as ineffective.
~ 63% oppose sending more troops.
~ 65% see little to no change in Bush's tactics toward Iraq.
~ 68% disapprove of Bush's handling the Iraq situation.
~ 53% say Republicans should not(!) support Bush's overall proposals.
~ 53% thinks Congress should either block all funding for the war, or block funding for sending more troops. Of this only 8% are in favor of blocking all funding.

Implied consent is at play here. Make the President use the Food and Forage Act of 1861 to fund his war by stealing from the people, keeping in mind that the majority of Americans are not affected by this occupation. Maybe the President pinching from Medicaid or Welfare or Education will rile the masses to throw the thief out. After all, it's only the Veterans that he's currently pinching from.

====================================================
You aren't defending, protecting, preserving the Constitution of the USA
When you allow the usurpations of the Constitutional laws of the USA.

"We have intended to work with this Administration, with our friends on the other side of the aisle, in the desire to attend to the Nation's Business; we have studiously avoided anything that might look like we were taking revenge on our Republican friends for the shameful way we were treated when THEY held the reins of power. We have tried to be nice. We have even eschewed the idea of impeaching the people who lied to get us into the mess we are in, and propose to make the mess even worse with this escalation and probable enlargement of the debacle, even threatening to get us into World War III with another series of cold-blooded errors! What has been our reward? The other body cravenly will not even debate a non-binding resolution brought by a Republican; they mistakenly say that this President needs support at this critical time. The American people want us OUT of Iraq; the American people are beginning to demand that the people who lied to start this war, and are continuing to lie to enlarge it be punished for their misdeeds. The Congress is supposed to be REPRESENTING the American People! Do we fulfill our Constitutional duty, or do we hide like a pack of cowards behind our flag and say, in weaseling fashion that "The troops need our support?" I say yes! The troops DO need our support! The best way we can support the brave men and women who have been lied into a losing - and faulty - cause, is - BRING THEM HOME! Not only do I reject the idea of the criminal escalation of this unjust and unnecessary - and disastrously costly - war, I demand that it END, and that the perpetrators who cynically lied to get us into it be appropriately punished for their actions. If that requires that impeachment be put back on the Speaker's table, so be it."

Referencing this NIE, former Reagan NSA Director Lt. Gen. William Odom stated yesterday that "victory is not an option":

As I have said before, the sooner politicians and Americans come to grips with the fact that there is no "winning" in Iraq, the sooner the troops will come home. Setting aside the the fact that these objectives were illegal, immoral and unethical, victory as defined by the stated neocon objectives is accomplished.

• No WMD......check
• Remove Saddam Hussein....check
• Install newly elected government.....check
• Trained 300,000 Iraqi Forces (their numbers).....check
• Killed al-Zarqawi....check
• Spent (wasted through fraud) Billions in reconstruction.....check

Mission Accomplished. It's Time to call ENDEX to military operations in Iraq.

I was briefly confused by the use of the new terminology. Upon review, I find the word new, the idea old, as is often the case when dealing with propaganda. It turns out, the "new" weapons said to be provided by Iran are actually not new Iranian weapons, but rather old Irish weapons. I say Irish? I meant British. Turns out, the British gave them to the Irish, to use againt the British as part of an allegedly botched sting scam. It is also worth noting, this is not the first time this particular piece of propaganda has been used, as this story was published October 2005.

Shaped Charge Theory
Hydrodynamic penetration is a complex mechanism which begins to appear when the strike velocity exceeds a critical value, typically about 1,150m/s for current penetrators against rolled homogenous armor (RHA) targets. Full hydrodynamic behavior does not occur until the strike velocity reaches several kilometers per second, such as occurs with shaped charge munitions. At strike velocities less than about 1,150m/s penetration of metal armor occurs mainly through the mechanism of plastic deformation. A typical penetrator achieves a strike velocity around 1,500m/s to 1,700m/s, depending on range, and therefore target effects generally exhibit both hydrodynamic behaviour and plastic deformation.

A number of models of varying degrees of complexity have been developed to predict long rod penetrator performance. A common feature that emerges from these models is the importance of a high strike velocity to exploit more fully the hydrodynamic penetration mechanism, which, in turn, is further improved by the use of longer penetrators having higher densities relative to the target material density. This is amply supported by experimental work.

Shaped charge is indeed an extraordinary phenomenon that is beyond the scale of normal physics, which explains why its fundamental theoretical mechanism is by no means fully understood.

The shaped charge jet tip reaches 10 kms-l some 40 µs after detonation, giving a cone tip acceleration of about 25 million g. At this acceleration the tip would reach the speed of light, were this possible, in around 1.5 seconds. But of course, it reaches a terminal velocity after only 40 millionths of a second. It is difficult to think of any other terrestrial event as fast as a shaped charge jet tip. The jet tail has a velocity of 2-5 kms-l and so the jet stretches out to a length of about 8 cone diameters (CDs) before particulation occurs. The stretching occurs at a high strain rate, requiring the cone material to have excellent dynamic ductility at temperatures up to about 450 °C. On reaching a target, the pressure developed between the jet tip and the forming crater can be as high as 10 Mbar (10 million atmospheres), several times the highest pressure predicted in the Earth's core.

It is universally agreed that conical liner collapse and target penetration both occur by hydrodynamic flow. However, it has been established by X-ray diffraction that the jet is solid metal and not molten. Additionally, best estimates of jet temperature by incandescence colour suggest a mean value of about 450 °C, and copper melts at 1083 °C at atmospheric pressure. So the following conundrum is the first confusion: The jet appears to behave like a fluid, and yet it is known to be a solid. One recent theory that would help explain this is that the jet has a molten core but with a solid outer sheath.

The hypervelocity hydrodynamic impact (unlike lower speed KE penetration) results in a mushroom head penetration, such that the hole diameter is larger than the penetrator diameter. The dynamic compressive yield stress of the target is exceeded by a factor of at least one thousand times, so that only the densities of the target and jet materials are important. Both materials flow as if they were fluids and the penetration event can be modelled quite accurately using the Bernoulli equation for incompressible flow to give the well known hydrodynamic penetration equation.

Explosively Formed Projectile (EFP)
Wide angle cones and other liner shapes such as plates or dishes do not jet, but give instead an explosively formed projectile or EFP. The projectile forms by dynamic plastic flow and has a velocity of 1-3 kms-l . Target penetration is much less than that of a jet, but the hole diameter is larger with more armour backspall.

The concept of using explosive energy to deform a metal plate into a coherent penetrator while simultaneously accelerating it to extremely high velocities offers a unique method of employing a kinetic energy penetrator without the use of a large gun. A typical explosively formed projectile (EFP) is comprised of a metallic liner, a case, an explosive section, and an initiation train. Very often there is also a retaining ring to position and hold the liner-explosive subassembly in place. EFP warheads are normally designed to produce a single massive, high velocity penetrator. After detonation, the explosive products create enormous pressures that accelerate the liner while simultaneously reshaping it into a rod or some other desired shape. The EFP then hits the target at a high speed, delivering a significantly high mechanical power.

An EFP warhead configuration may be comprised of a steel case, a high-explosive charge, and a metallic liner. Explosively formed penetrator (EFP) warheads have been designed to project a single massive high velocity penetrator to attack the top of armored vehicles. Such armor perforation capability needs further improvement to counter new generations of harder armored vehicles, without resorting to a larger caliber weapon system. In developing a warhead configuration that meets system constraints and also meets performance requirements, several parameters in the warhead configuration must be redesigned to achieve an optimum configuration. Several warhead configurations have been developed to accommodate varying system constraints.

Explosively Formed Penetrator warheads can defeat the target at very long standoffs. EFP warheads consist of an explosive billet and a metal liner. When the explosive is detonated, the detonation wave forms the liner into a high-speed long rod penetrator and propels the penetrator towards the target at speeds greater that Mach 6.

The key differance tween shaped charge and explosively formed penetrator weapons is distance from the target the weapon can be while remaining effective. Other than that, the differance is, the EFP is a shaped charge with an extra, or a differantly shaped, piece. That piece is used as a projectile, while the shaped charge is used as a gun to hurl that projectile. The EFP weapon is basicly the shaped charge weapon on steroids.

Note that the photo I used above is of a HOMEMADE Weapon. It is a piece of pipe cut on a horizonal bandsaw, with the penetrator fastened in place with a couple sloppy welds. There is no great skill required to make this. Making the infrared trigger does require some skill. Not much more than shown here, but some. Solder as crappy as those welds might not work.

I could make one of these for between thirty and fourty dollars. That includes the trigger.
Frosted Flake
Next topic : North Korea. If I understand correctly, One Million tons of oil. That would be 8 Million Barrels. That works out to a half billion dollars...Seems like an awful lot of money, till you think of one Nuke going off somewhere inconvienient, and of course the war that would cause.

On Topic I am watching, hoping to learn. It may not seem so, but I do this a lot.

The House of Representatives will spend the next three days debating whether they should pass a non-binding resolution regarding BushCo,s Iraq policy and his plan to escalate troops and military assets in the Middle East.

Pelosi leads the way in debate over Iraq

The nonbinding measure states simply that the House "will continue to support and protect" troops serving in Iraq but that it "disapproves" of the troop buildup.

Wow - this ought to really scare and deter Bush/Cheney and Company. NOT!



White House Press Briefing 2-12-07

Question: The Democrats in the House are out with their resolution -- fairly straightforward. Is this something you can live with?

MR. SNOW: Look, Congress is going to do whatever it thinks it needs to do, in terms of resolutions. We're not going to get into the business of writing them. What the President lives with is the responsibility of being an effective Commander-in-Chief and advancing the cause of a democracy in Iraq. Although members of the House did not have an opportunity to vote on General Petraeus, members of the Senate did, and without objection they voted for him. And we believe that he ought to get what is necessary to move forward in Iraq.

So as we have said in all cases, members need to understand that their words do travel, and they need to assess what impact they think they may have. But other than that --

What impact will the House members, words, debate or resolution have? The American people will not be distracted by your non binding resolution.

Talk is Cheap! Americans die while Congress engages in worthless debates.

Talk is Cheap! Iraqis die while Congress engages in worthless debates.

Talk is Cheap! BushCo laughs while Congress engages in worthless debates.

IMO - if Congress approves supplemental and/or continued funding for the war in Iraq, the House members will without a doubt be complicit in supporting and prosecuting this illegal and immoral war.

Are You For or Against the Democrats Retaining Political Control: No Escaping This Vote by the American Public

There is a great differance between being sure of something myself, and seeing an expert make the same assesment in largly the same way.

Also thought the Between the Lines link very worthwhile.

Now, got work to do. I know, I know, but, you know...
Frosted Flake

Thank You. You made me so proud with your statement. I'm so glad you are willing to use the power of the purse to try and reign in this war now.

We still need to get the garbage out of the White House and VP residence. We need some new tennants that won't trash the place.

Dick : Hello Georgy

George : hello Dickey. how have you been doing

Dick : Fine,but we need to do something about the Manamals.
George : what,s that Dickey

Dick : well you know, I told you about what they been trien to do.

George : yeh That Conyers held that meetin and brought all those signatures to the white house.
I bet those manamals thought I would be impressed.

Both : HA HA HA

George : Ever since we stold the first election , those pesky manamals have been pissin me off. I started that rigamarole in Iraq to get them off my back, seems like it made them madder.Guess I,ll have to get their asses into a bigger mess to shut em up. I , being the commander in chief am going to really kick their asses this time.
I,m going to raid Iran an blow up a few hundred thousand manamals at one time, Just like that other dude did in WW2.I,ll use a nuke too . that should shut them up. Nothing like brute force to quite things down for a while!

Dick : I think you have a decent plan there Georgy , if you wipe out a few million manamals , we could have more "Elbow Room" ,Gee I think I heard that before. Damn manamals are nothing but stupid idiots anyway. As a matter of fact why don't we just round them up and ,yeh ,what could we do with them? Those that we tortured in the internment camps were a lot of fun. Reminded me a lot of when I was little ,I used to love hurting those small animals. actually I don't see the difference between the two,after all we are the rulers,and they are here to do what we think is right!

George : Right Dickey , after we pinned that PNAC it became clear to me that we had to get rid of a whole bunch of manamal trash. Seems like we are doin ok. No credible opposition to worry about. The big corporations are working for us and we have control of the military. what can stop us. Once we get that preemptive strike goin in Iran , we can reinstate the draft,then we,el really havem by the balls.

Dick : sounds like a plan to me Georgy

George : See ya later Dicky boy!

Dick : yeh ,later Big Guy!{ Walks off snickering to himself) Boy have I got that dumb ass well trained

George : (thinking to himself) Man I,m gonna get rid of that asshole as soon as I can! Anyway all those terists are muslums. I on the other hand am a devout Christian,and because of that I have to get rid of those raghead manamals.They ain't people so I ain't offending anybody by killin um.Something else keeps bothering me though. Them Israelis ain't Christians either! Gonna have to do sumthin about that too.
The thing I like most though is that I have been tellin these manamal idiots about the war on terra!Tellin em for six years now It,s the only word I learned in Latin , Terra (Terra (name for the earth) I been wagein war against the earth HA HA HA HA HA screw all you manamals I ,m The Boss!

So far, the best talk was given by Dennis Kucinich. Damn, I wish he was about a foot taller! Then he could become President! (Didn't you ever notice that people of "Presidential" caliber always seem to be tall? I guess "Tall"="Imposing" in the lizard brains of the great unwashed Public - possibly a holdover from the respect the lower orders gave to T. Rex.) The Republicans in the opposition to the resolution keep repeating the same lies about the resolution over and over and over again. Can't these people even get their facts straight before they start running their mouths? It's a short and sweet piece that says, basically, that the sense of Congress is that we don't want any more troops put into harm's way. What's wrong with that? Well, for Republicans to agree with it would mean that the great decider actually made a few misteaks. And we couldn't have that, now, could we? The slavish psycho-phancy of the bulk of the Republicans would be maddening, if there were not such a thing as a TV Remote. After the first hour, I used it a lot. The Democrats were at least interesting in their talks, and that because they had such varied approaches, while the Republicans said the same things over and over. It would have been funny if it weren't so tiresome. JC: Your talk was great - but FOR GOD'S SAKE GET SOME SLEEP! YOU LOOKED EXHAUSTED! Please - for the Nation's sake, take care of yourself; we need your voice now more than ever.

a "surge" for Iraq, I thought maybe you should all give some thought to the following, which I am sure is but one of many stories -- "SUPPORT YOUR TROOPS":

"February 13th, 2007 1:33 am
Told to wait, a Marine dies

VA care in spotlight after Iraq war veteran's suicide

By Charles M. Sennott / Boston Globe

STEWART, Minn. -- It took two years of hell to convince him, but finally Jonathan Schulze was ready.

On the morning of Jan. 11, Jonathan, an Iraq war veteran with two Purple Hearts, neatly packed his US Marine Corps duffel bag with his sharply creased clothes, a framed photo of his new baby girl, and a leather-bound Bible and headed out from the family farm for a 75-mile drive to the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in St. Cloud, Minn.

Family and friends had convinced him at last that the devastating mental wounds he brought home from war, wounds that triggered severe depression, violent outbursts, and eventually an uncontrollable desire to kill himself, could not be drowned in alcohol or treated with the array of antianxiety drugs he'd been prescribed.

And so, with his father and stepmother at his side, he confessed to an intake counselor that he was suicidal. He wanted to be admitted to a psychiatric ward.

But, instead, he was told that the clinician who prescreened cases like his was unavailable. Go home and wait for a phone call tomorrow, the counselor said, as Marianne Schulze, his stepmother, describes it.

When a clinical social worker called the next day, Jonathan, 25, told again of his suicidal thoughts and other symptoms. And then, with his stepmother listening in, he learned that he was 26th on the waiting list for one of the 12 beds in the center's ward for post-traumatic stress disorder sufferers.

Four days later, on Jan. 16, he wrapped a household extension cord around his neck, tied it to a beam in the basement, and hanged himself. . . . "

Soldier

And, then, more on "SUPPORT YOUR TROOPS:"

"February 12th, 2007 8:11 pm
Veterans face consecutive budget cuts

By Andrew Taylor / Associated Press

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration plans to cut funding for veterans' health care two years from now - even as badly wounded troops returning from Iraq could overwhelm the system.

Bush is using the cuts, critics say, to help fulfill his pledge to balance the budget by 2012.

After an increase sought for next year, the Bush budget would turn current trends on their head. Even though the cost of providing medical care to veterans has been growing rapidly - by more than 10 percent in many years - White House budget documents assume consecutive cutbacks in 2009 and 2010 and a freeze thereafter.

The proposed cuts are unrealistic in light of recent VA budget trends - its medical care budget has risen every year for two decades and 83 percent in the six years since Bush took office - sowing suspicion that the White House is simply making them up to make its long-term deficit figures look better. . . ."

Cutbacks

Back on Jan. 31, 2006 you held a full Committee hearing concerning Presidential Signing Statements under the Bush Administration where the Hon. Mickey Edwards (R-Ok) testified to the matter of the President signing unconstitutional Bills into Law. That in doing so, it would constitute a direct violation of his Oath of Office.

The Military Commissions Act of 2006 is such an example. Within it's body, the Constitutionally protected right of Habeas Corpus was lifted, some say suspended, for those found to be domestic enemy combatants. Thus, any and every American that is cited as potentially being an enemy combatant qualifies for the unjust and unconstitutional treatment of no Habeas protections.

The right of Habeas Corpus is a Constitutionally enumerated right that, "can not be suspended unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it".

As with all instances, enumerated rights that are under consideration of Constitutional redefining, isn't it correct that any measures must go before the people of the States to be voted upon as an Amendment to the Constitution? Does Congress hold this privilege or does it lie at the feet of the people?

In Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507 (2004), the Supreme Court reaffirmed the right of United States citizens to seek writs of habeas corpus even when declared enemy combatants.

In Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 126 S.Ct. 2749 (2006), Salim Ahmed Hamdan petitioned for a writ of habeas corpus, challenging that the military commissions set up by the Bush administration to try detainees at Guantanamo Bay "violate both the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the four Geneva Conventions." In a 5-3 ruling, the Supreme Court rejected Congress's attempts to strip the courts of jurisdiction over habeas corpus appeals by detainees at Guantanamo Bay. Congress had previously passed the Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2006 which stated in Section 1005(e), "Procedures for Status Review of Detainees Outside the United States".

On September 29, 2006, the House and Senate approved the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (MCA).

On February 9, 2007, a federal appeals court in Washington ruled that a U.S. citizen in U.S. military custody in Iraq has the right to challenge his detention in a federal court.

Appeals Court Backs Detainee

The judges said all American citizens, regardless of where they are captured and imprisoned, are entitled to federal court review of their cases through habeas corpus petitions if they are in U.S. custody.

The court also found that the U.S. military cannot transfer Omar to the Iraqi government to avoid a habeas corpus hearing. Circuit Judge Janice Rogers Brown, who dissented in part, agreed that the district court has jurisdiction over Omar's habeas case.

The mere fact that this Administration attempted to move Shawqi Ahmad Omar out of their custody and into that of the Iraqis so as to deney him his Constitutional right of Habeas Corpus demonstrates a willingness to circumvent Constitutional Law.

The breach of trust occurred on September 29, 2006, when the President willfully violated his Oath of Office to faithfully execute the Office of the President of the United States of America, so as to sign into law an unconstitutional act.

On February 9, 2007, the Courts reaffirmed that breach of trust.

Where is the Congressional rebuke of this man's unconstitutional activities toward Americans?

No censure? No Impeachment? No accountability?

The precedent that is being set through Congresses abrogation of their Duty to hold the Executive accountable for high crimes and misdemeanors not only places the Presidency in a position beyond the boundary and scope of Constitutional Law, but also sends a clear message to the people; Democracy is dead in America.

UNACCEPTABLE!

Every day I act and try to stop this madness and watch Congress only talk about it. It would be nice to switch roles and talk about watching you act at stopping this madness for a change.

===================================================
You aren't defending, protecting, preserving the Constitution of the USA
When you allow the usurpations of the Constitutional laws of the USA.

Bush Administration-We know who they are & we know what they do. They have not changed; they have, in fact, gotten more defiant, and more determined to blunder forward with their neocon dream. No soft pleas of reason; no amount of solid, irrefutable evidence showing the wrongness of their actions; in fact-nothing short of immediately relieving them of command will stop their further slide into madness, or their absolute, unwavering determination to start Armageddon.

Unfortunately for our country, its people, and for the people of the Middle East and the world, our leaders who must act immediately seem incapable of doing so. The Republicans have proven yet again that they value party above all-above country, above principle, and certainly above honor. The Democrats have tried to recreate Bush, et al in an image more acceptable to them-they wish to see them as people who can be reasoned with, who can be gently chided into doing the "right thing". They also seem to think they have all the time in the world wait for this miracle to take place.

What is so very frustrating to people outside of the mesmerizing aura of DC, the Democrats do not seem to understand that one cannot reason with madmen, especially with determined, evil madmen. Ex-CIA Officials See Outbreak of Conflict with Iran Looming

"Milt Bearden, who served as CIA station chief in Pakistan from 1986-89, described the idea of military action in Iran as "insane." Still, he warned that "Americans should be prepared to wake up one morning and find themselves at war with Iran." He saw the trumpeting of evidence of Iran's assistance to the insurgency as a possible creation of a casus belli by the Bush administration.
Second, an anonymous CIA official who served in the Persian Gulf in 2003 said he did not believe the Bush administration was planning war with Iran, especially because "the military does not want to do this....Iran has a lot of ways to hurt us." Still, he warned war could break out by mistake.

So, whether by design or accident, it seems that Bush,s actions are headed on a course of conflict with Iran. Only you, Congressman Conyers, and your colleagues are in the position to stop the madness.